Saturday, October 28, 2006

Proverbs ~ Parenting/Rod Verses ~ DISCIPLINE

Below are the "parenting/rod" verses in Proverbs. I've previously shared notes from word studies I did on "rod" and "child". Another word that runs through these verses is "chasteneth" or "discipline".

Proverb 13:24 "He who withholds his rod hates his son, But he who loves him disciplines (4148) him diligently." NASV

"He that spareth his rod hateth his son; but he that loveth him chasteneth (4148) him quickly." KJV

Proverb 22:15 "Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; the rod of discipline (4148) will remove it far from him." NASV

"Foolishness is bound in the heart of the child; but the rod of correction (4148) shall drive it far from him." KJV

Proverb 23:13 "Do not hold back discipline (4148) from the child, although you strike him with the rod, he will not die." NASV

"Withhold not correction (4148) from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die." KJV

Proverb 29:15 "The rod and reproof give wisdom, But a child who gets his own way brings shame to his mother."

Chasteneth/Discipline (4148) - Muwcar or Muscar

Strongs: Chastisement, warning, instruction, restraint, corrects,
discipline, doctrine, instruction, rebuke

Dr. Zodhiates: Almost exclusive to poetic and prophetic literature
~
instruction, discipline - usually through the father and conveyed ORALLY
~apart from Proverbs always associated with God

BDBG - word not in here

Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament: 877b -
muscar - discipline
Proverbs - the emphasis of
muscar is instruction
~LXX (Septuagint) translated as Paideuo - emphasis is on education

~denotes ORAL correction which results in EDUCATION

~the theological basis of discipline/correction is grounded in the covenant relationship with YAHWEH.

~Deut 11:2 - discipline of God is His mighty activity in covenant history by which He revels Himself, not negative
hardship in the wilderness was balanced with miraculous provision

~Discipline must be theocentric (God centered) and theofugal (God natured)
{Cool!!!!! See Discipline Thoughts - July 26th and Where's the Grace - July 20th}

Proverbs 3:11-12 - Discipline/
chastisment gives the assurance of son ship, points primarily to a God centered way of life only secondarily to ethical behavior.INSTRUCTION.

Proverbs 22:15 - "rod of correction" most often denotes oral instruction

Conclusions: We must lay aside our preconceptions of what "words" mean when we study the Bible and see how those words were used and understood by the people who wrote them and the people who originally heard them.

I'm not sure where "discipline" was changed to "rod or spanking" in Christian circles but the word in these verses means ORAL INSTRUCTION - based on a COVENANT relationship with God. Instruction that is centered on GOD and his NATURE/CHARACTER! In other words
Proverbs places the emphasis of discipline on DISCIPLINING and MENTORING of our children. BTW, beware of taking THIS word study and applying it to each time you see the word "discipline" in the Bible...there may be many definitions - this definition applies to these verses and others with the same Strongs number, only.

Take these word studies back to the verses and see what you think.

He that spares the rod {authority, tribe, correction} hates his son but he who loves him disciplines {orally instructs} him quickly!!!

Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child {young man} but the rod of correction {oral instruction (see above) that is God centered and based on God's nature} shall drive it far from him.

Do not hold back discipline { God centered instruction - above} from the child {young man} though you strike him with the rod he will not die. - OK this verse I need to study more. Because clearly...you COULD kill someone by beating and striking them with a big branch - they crushed skulls with this rod - so the meaning can't mean you couldn't kill him because you could....regardless....context of Proverbs leads me to believe that discipline would come way before the rod.....and way before you would reach a spot of literally beating a young man with a rod (think Thailand caning of years back).

It is much easier to swat a child for doing something wrong than it is to walk beside him and instruct, teach, point him to God BEFORE he gets to the behavior that tempts you to swat.

Our choice is not "spanking" or "leave the child to grow out of it". Any of us, left to our own devices would continue to be self-centered, mean and hurtful - because we have this thing called a sin nature. Instead, we are called to be vitally involved with our children, to discipline our children. We are called to instruct our children....this is what the very word "discipline" means. We are to constantly be looking beyond their behavior to their heart and pointing them to God and His very nature. I've seen parents who don't spank but also don't "discipline/instruct/mentor" and that is as sad as a parent who thinks that spanking is the only tool for teaching a young child. We are to be striving, contending, praying, fasting for our child to come to saving knowledge of Jesus...for them to love Him wholeheartedly (Mark 12:30/31 - my life verses)...we are not to leave our child to "grow out" of childhood but neither are we to see childhood as a condition that we must "beat out of him".

We mess it up so often. We need to throw ourselves on His GRACE!

When I began to see that the Word doesn't really teach a formula that will make perfect little Christians, I began to realize that I must be fasting and praying for my children. I need God's wisdom and strength and creativity to reach their hearts. I need to know God and His character so that I can faithfully lead my children to Him. It is all so much more than catching a bad behavior and administering a spank.

I hope you have caught my heart. These are MY CONVICTIONS. I understand that many godly people disagree. It grieves my heart, however, to hear verses taught out of context...to see people put modern churchy definitions on words that simply don't mean what we think they mean, and then walk away with faulty applications and understanding. Worse yet, so many simply believe "the Bible teaches x, y, or z" and never take the time to check for themselves to see. I promise you that studying the Word of God will transform your mind, your will and your heart.

I have attempted here to share notes of word studies, to share a bit of how this has worked out in my life and to trust the Holy Spirit to lead you to the applications that He would work out in your family.

Remember, it is never to late to begin anew. God's mercies are NEW each and every morning. I love His Grace and I love His Mercy - I'd be nowhere without them.

Proverbs - Parenting/Rod Verses - Condensed Version - "Child"

I'm going to see what I can get done as far as posting notes this weekend. I don't have Bible study this Tuesday so it is the perfect time for me to spend extra time on this and be done with it. At this point I now KNOW what I think the Bible has to say about this and I'm ready to move on to new topics. So much to study and so little time. {G}

There are four verses in Proverbs that are oft quoted as "proof" that God means for us to spank our young children.

Proverb 13:24 "He who withholds his rod hates his son, But he who loves him disciplines him diligently."

Proverb 22:15 "Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child (5288); the rod of discipline will remove it far from him."

Proverb 23:13 "Do not hold back discipline from the child(5288), although you strike him with the rod, he will not die."

Proverb 29:15 "The rod and reproof give wisdom, But a child(5288) who gets his own way brings shame to his mother."

I've already shared the definition of the word "rod" . You will need to determine which definition you feel fits the context of each of these verses.

Three of these verses have a word in common - "Child" (5288). As I stated earlier, there are many Hebrew words translated as "child". I also stated it is good to get at least 3 sources when doing a study. If I'd stopped with Strong's I'd have missed some amazing discoveries.

All three of these verses use the word "naar" for child. Strongs # 5288

Strongs: infancy - adolescence, damsel, young man - from 5287 - rustling of the mane, Lion's roar

Dr. Zodhiates:
From 5287 - same as above, literally to shake out, over throw, cast-off

5288 - naar - Most often used of a young person old enough to serve in battle; helper in the army or to be a personal private force

Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament: #1389a The word is used once as "babe"
Could be used of weaned child (5) - marriage; puberty is primarily implied

Brown, Driver, Briggs, Gesenius Hebrew-English Lexicon: marriageable age, warrior, servant, retainer

Expositors Bible Commentary, V 5, Gaebelin - 1061 "Jewish rabbinical tradition considered "naar" to be the ages between 16 - 24.

Interesting side note: Naar comes from "naar" - (no it isn't the same word but I can't make the squiggly lines on the computer that make it a different word ::snort::) which is the picture of the lion roaring, shaking his mane and came to mean to "overthrow" and "cast off"....to me this clearly fits the ages of 16 - 24 better than early childhood.

Other uses of "Naar" 5288 - in the Scripture:
~
Joseph (17) sold into slavery - Gen 37
~Joshua (naar) spied out the promise land - Ex 33
~David - could slay a giant but not wear a grown man's armour - (I Sam 17:42)
~Solomon - took the throne at 21 - naar - I chron 22:5
~Absolom killed Amnon (II Sam :21)
~Josiah (16) began to speak for God (II Chron 34:3)
~Naar must concern self with sexual purity (Ps 119:9)
~Elisha is tormented by group of "naars" (II Kings 2:23-24)

Conclusions:

There is simply no sound basis for thinking that "naar" should be translated and understood to mean "young man" everywhere in Scripture except these four verses in Proverbs. These verses are NOT talking about young children. They are talking about young men....most likely between the ages of 16 - 24 as rabbinical tradition would understand, imo. Yet, these verses are used by "experts" to prove that we should spank children when they are young, so that by the time they are 4 or 5 they won't need spankings. This is NOT what the Word teaches.

Nowhere have I found the Bible to say that a young child (under 5, as 5 is the youngest age I found for naar)should be spanked or hit or beat with anything. The Bible instead shows young children under the care and protection of adults.

Choose the definition for rod that you think fits the verse the best...but you cannot get away from the fact that "child" (5288) is NOT a young child...it's a young adult.

What do we make from this? God takes very seriously the rebellion of young adults. These verses were written when the other option for rebellious young men was stoning to death. No one would advocate that now. Why do we still advocate beating with a rod? I purpose that we are under a new covenant now and as we no longer stone young adults, we would also no longer beat them with rods.

Regardless, these verses say NOTHING about early childhood training.

Proverb 22:15 - speaks of the foolishness of a young man and not a child. Foolishness in Proverbs is NOT the same as the natural immaturity of a young child. Therefore, the verses about beating a fool with a rod don't apply to natural immaturity either.

Go back and study the verses with the definitions of "rod" and "child" in mind and see if they still seem to be saying that we are commanded to spank young children if we hope for them to grow up to be responsible adults.

I submit that no where does the Bible expressly prohibit spanking but neither does it expressly command spanking.

I had planned to go verse by verse, but really if you have the word studies, you can study it out yourself. I may still post one or two more word studies....good stuff. {G}




This & That ~ Saturday

Hmmm...it was a full day.

This is the day that I'd planned to be at Fall Focus in VA....so I thought about that and prayed for the ladies there...and prayed for those who aren't there but are faithful where God has called them to serve...and wished I was there to see old friends and make new friends...but rejoiced that I was HERE to enjoy the day with my crew.

I got the co-op order compiled. This means the software that *I* installed on the boys' computer worked. Yippee! It also involved a couple of phone calls with women that I don't get to talk with often - so that was fun as well. I always get a KICK out of seeing what everyone orders. At the start of co-op everyone ordered grains and pasta. That was IT. I ordered other things and was the junk food diva of the co-op. Then last month EVERYONE ordered things I never thought to see them order..lots of junk food and sausage and such. THIS month EVERYONE is ordering cleaning supplies. Jennifer and I speculated as to what everyone will order NEXT month. ::snort::

Mike called this a.m. Our call was cut short by sirens. I received an email tonight saying it was a smoke detector going off.

We did all the things mentioned below.

I put in a personal spice order with Monterrey Bay Spice Company.
Hmmm....can't write up there or it is underlined. LOL The prices through this company are way cheaper than the prices of spices in the store. I really had to debate on this one. Shop Natural sells a much bigger variety of organic spices from Frontier Spices. These were way cheaper...organic...cheap...organic...cheap....I finally went cheap except for a few that we use quite often - Cinnamon and such.

Early this a.m. our glass decanter of maple syrup broke...well it got broken. What a mess!!! That floor was mopped four times and we still stuck to it. Finally, this evening I attacked it with VINEGAR and a bit of water. I mopped, Jamin followed behind with an old towel...drying. No more squeaky, sticky mess. I love vinegar. ::snort::

Arielle, Nolan and I enjoyed a game of *Hands Down*, Stacia climbed around the table and generally added to the bedlam. ::snort::

Heard from Mom and Dad tonight. Dad has moved from the hospital to the rehab...back again for the 3rd time. He's still doing much better pain wise with this surgery than he did with either of the other two. He's not allowed to put any weight on the leg for six weeks.

Why do you think God made it so babies have to teeth? Couldn't He have come up with a different way of getting teeth???? Just a thought....


*Polar the Titanic Bear* by Daisy Corning Spedden
I've mentioned this book a few times this week but it deserves it's own entry. This book is delightful! The story was originally written as a Christmas gift for Daisy's 8 year old son, Douglas. Polar is a Steiff bear that was given to Douglas.


Through this book we are offered a glimpse into a lifestyle that is long gone. The Spedden family traveled aboard the Titanic. This little book tells the story of that and more through the eyes of Polar, Douglas' faithful companion. Polar even has it's own website.

This is the best type of children's fiction. Factual (both info and REAL photos), interesting, creative and engaging. Thanks, Steph, for the recommendation. I wholeheartedly pass this recommendation on to the rest of you.
PLAYING

We worked this morning and played this afternoon. Jamin suggested he take the children to the park, and *I* refuse to be left out. LOL I think the idea was for me to "relax" at home...but it's most relaxing to have all the chickadees together...minus the two girl babies and the biggest young man.....and Mike....ANYWAY.....We all went to the park. ::snort::

This park is within walking distance of our house. An added bonus to playing at the park, is that I was able to walk around the park and get 2 miles in today. My goal SHOULD be 30 minutes of moving my body a day...but it IS 30 minutes at least 3 times a week...for now. I'll work up to the every day thing. I plan to add the *8 Minutes in the Morning* routine back in this week.

Arielle began the day by pushing Stacia in the swing...


Wheee.....


Stacia shocks us all by yelling, "Air, Air"....she honestly was calling Arielle back to play with her ~ her first word other than "Mom, Dad and Hi" ~ Arielle is thrilled!



Jamin has the job of assembling both our kites now that he's the MAN of house on our outings!


Releasing the Dragon

A classic landing!

Netflix Mix up

I suppose it was bound to happen. We opened the sleeve that said "Mulan 2 - Disney", inserted the disc, and up on the screen popped....the insect's version of China and Mulan. Somehow it seemed to have lost something - but then again we ARE studying insects this week. It was a bit disconcerting to see human characters (Mulan etc) with three sets of legs and antennai.


The children want to try again next week. We finished the evening up with an episode of Gilligans Island and Hogan's Heroes. . . always dependable.
Cooking up a STORM


Tomorrow is our quarterly "unity" service and potluck. This means that instead of 3 services we are having one big protestant service and we are all eating together afterwards. Each service has sign up sheets for different dishes. The service I attend, the Student/contemporary, was supposed to bring chips. I was excited to go to a potluck and take nothing but chips. Personal family joke from Hardin, MT. ANYWAY - the sign up sheets got mixed up and the "dessert" one was passed around our service. Debbie and I were the only ones to sign up. I noticed the mix up and left a note for the Parish coordinator to let us know if she wanted us to bring chips instead. She let us know that we were the only two brining desserts.

SO....Jamin and I played in the kitchen this a.m. We made Chocolate Ooey Goey cake, blondies, chocolate chip cookies and white/coconut/almond cookies. At least I know that Zander will have lots of dessert options. ::snort::
I took the plunge!!!!

I did it and nothing terrible happened. LOL Hopefully, the category links in the side bar will make it easier to navigate.

I'm still not happy with the archive...I'll have to see how some of you worked it and ask questions. LOL I didn't want list after list of titles...there were 181+ in October alone. BUT I'm not sure that drop down thing is "right" either....of course, with the categories someone can find what they want that way rather than scrolling through the archives.....I guess.

I couldn't get a few minor things to work the way I wanted but overall it was as easy as you all said it would be. {G}