Proverbs - Parenting/Rod Verses - Condensed Version - "Child"

I'm going to see what I can get done as far as posting notes this weekend. I don't have Bible study this Tuesday so it is the perfect time for me to spend extra time on this and be done with it. At this point I now KNOW what I think the Bible has to say about this and I'm ready to move on to new topics. So much to study and so little time. {G}

There are four verses in Proverbs that are oft quoted as "proof" that God means for us to spank our young children.

Proverb 13:24 "He who withholds his rod hates his son, But he who loves him disciplines him diligently."

Proverb 22:15 "Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child (5288); the rod of discipline will remove it far from him."

Proverb 23:13 "Do not hold back discipline from the child(5288), although you strike him with the rod, he will not die."

Proverb 29:15 "The rod and reproof give wisdom, But a child(5288) who gets his own way brings shame to his mother."

I've already shared the definition of the word "rod" . You will need to determine which definition you feel fits the context of each of these verses.

Three of these verses have a word in common - "Child" (5288). As I stated earlier, there are many Hebrew words translated as "child". I also stated it is good to get at least 3 sources when doing a study. If I'd stopped with Strong's I'd have missed some amazing discoveries.

All three of these verses use the word "naar" for child. Strongs # 5288

Strongs: infancy - adolescence, damsel, young man - from 5287 - rustling of the mane, Lion's roar

Dr. Zodhiates: From 5287 - same as above, literally to shake out, over throw, cast-off

5288 - naar - Most often used of a young person old enough to serve in battle; helper in the army or to be a personal private force

Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament: #1389a The word is used once as "babe"
Could be used of weaned child (5) - marriage; puberty is primarily implied

Brown, Driver, Briggs, Gesenius Hebrew-English Lexicon: marriageable age, warrior, servant, retainer

Expositors Bible Commentary, V 5, Gaebelin - 1061 "Jewish rabbinical tradition considered "naar" to be the ages between 16 - 24.

Interesting side note: Naar comes from "naar" - (no it isn't the same word but I can't make the squiggly lines on the computer that make it a different word ::snort::) which is the picture of the lion roaring, shaking his mane and came to mean to "overthrow" and "cast off"....to me this clearly fits the ages of 16 - 24 better than early childhood.

Other uses of "Naar" 5288 - in the Scripture:
~Joseph (17) sold into slavery - Gen 37
~Joshua (naar) spied out the promise land - Ex 33
~David - could slay a giant but not wear a grown man's armour - (I Sam 17:42)
~Solomon - took the throne at 21 - naar - I chron 22:5
~Absolom killed Amnon (II Sam :21)
~Josiah (16) began to speak for God (II Chron 34:3)
~Naar must concern self with sexual purity (Ps 119:9)
~Elisha is tormented by group of "naars" (II Kings 2:23-24)

Conclusions:

There is simply no sound basis for thinking that "naar" should be translated and understood to mean "young man" everywhere in Scripture except these four verses in Proverbs. These verses are NOT talking about young children. They are talking about young men....most likely between the ages of 16 - 24 as rabbinical tradition would understand, imo. Yet, these verses are used by "experts" to prove that we should spank children when they are young, so that by the time they are 4 or 5 they won't need spankings. This is NOT what the Word teaches.

Nowhere have I found the Bible to say that a young child (under 5, as 5 is the youngest age I found for naar)should be spanked or hit or beat with anything. The Bible instead shows young children under the care and protection of adults.

Choose the definition for rod that you think fits the verse the best...but you cannot get away from the fact that "child" (5288) is NOT a young child...it's a young adult.

What do we make from this? God takes very seriously the rebellion of young adults. These verses were written when the other option for rebellious young men was stoning to death. No one would advocate that now. Why do we still advocate beating with a rod? I purpose that we are under a new covenant now and as we no longer stone young adults, we would also no longer beat them with rods.

Regardless, these verses say NOTHING about early childhood training.

Proverb 22:15 - speaks of the foolishness of a young man and not a child. Foolishness in Proverbs is NOT the same as the natural immaturity of a young child. Therefore, the verses about beating a fool with a rod don't apply to natural immaturity either.

Go back and study the verses with the definitions of "rod" and "child" in mind and see if they still seem to be saying that we are commanded to spank young children if we hope for them to grow up to be responsible adults.

I submit that no where does the Bible expressly prohibit spanking but neither does it expressly command spanking.

I had planned to go verse by verse, but really if you have the word studies, you can study it out yourself. I may still post one or two more word studies....good stuff. {G}

This & That ~ Saturday

Hmmm...it was a full day.

This is the day that I'd planned to be at Fall Focus in VA....so I thought about that and prayed for the ladies there...and prayed for those who aren't there but are faithful where God has called them to serve...and wished I was there to see old friends and make new friends...but rejoiced that I was HERE to enjoy the day with my crew.

I got the co-op order compiled. This means the software that *I* installed on the boys' computer worked. Yippee! It also involved a couple of phone calls with women that I don't get to talk with often - so that was fun as well. I always get a KICK out of seeing what everyone orders. At the start of co-op everyone ordered grains and pasta. That was IT. I ordered other things and was the junk food diva of the co-op. Then last month EVERYONE ordered things I never thought to see them order..lots of junk food and sausage and such. THIS month EVERYONE is ordering cleaning supplies. Jennifer and I speculated as to what everyone will order NEXT month. ::snort::

Mike called this a.m. Our call was cut short by sirens. I received an email tonight saying it was a smoke detector going off.

We did all the things mentioned below.

I put in a personal spice order with Monterrey Bay Spice Company.
Hmmm....can't write up there or it is underlined. LOL The prices through this company are way cheaper than the prices of spices in the store. I really had to debate on this one. Shop Natural sells a much bigger variety of organic spices from Frontier Spices. These were way cheaper...organic...cheap...organic...cheap....I finally went cheap except for a few that we use quite often - Cinnamon and such.

Early this a.m. our glass decanter of maple syrup broke...well it got broken. What a mess!!! That floor was mopped four times and we still stuck to it. Finally, this evening I attacked it with VINEGAR and a bit of water. I mopped, Jamin followed behind with an old towel...drying. No more squeaky, sticky mess. I love vinegar. ::snort::

Arielle, Nolan and I enjoyed a game of *Hands Down*, Stacia climbed around the table and generally added to the bedlam. ::snort::

Heard from Mom and Dad tonight. Dad has moved from the hospital to the rehab...back again for the 3rd time. He's still doing much better pain wise with this surgery than he did with either of the other two. He's not allowed to put any weight on the leg for six weeks.

Why do you think God made it so babies have to teeth? Couldn't He have come up with a different way of getting teeth???? Just a thought....

*Polar the Titanic Bear* by Daisy Corning Spedden

I've mentioned this book a few times this week but it deserves it's own entry. This book is delightful! The story was originally written as a Christmas gift for Daisy's 8 year old son, Douglas. Polar is a Steiff bear that was given to Douglas.

Through this book we are offered a glimpse into a lifestyle that is long gone. The Spedden family traveled aboard the Titanic. This little book tells the story of that and more through the eyes of Polar, Douglas' faithful companion. Polar even has it's own website.

This is the best type of children's fiction. Factual (both info and REAL photos), interesting, creative and engaging. Thanks, Steph, for the recommendation. I wholeheartedly pass this recommendation on to the rest of you.

PLAYING

We worked this morning and played this afternoon. Jamin suggested he take the children to the park, and *I* refuse to be left out. LOL I think the idea was for me to "relax" at home...but it's most relaxing to have all the chickadees together...minus the two girl babies and the biggest young man.....and Mike....ANYWAY.....We all went to the park. ::snort::

This park is within walking distance of our house. An added bonus to playing at the park, is that I was able to walk around the park and get 2 miles in today. My goal SHOULD be 30 minutes of moving my body a day...but it IS 30 minutes at least 3 times a week...for now. I'll work up to the every day thing. I plan to add the *8 Minutes in the Morning* routine back in this week.

Arielle began the day by pushing Stacia in the swing...


Wheee.....


Stacia shocks us all by yelling, "Air, Air"....she honestly was calling Arielle back to play with her ~ her first word other than "Mom, Dad and Hi" ~ Arielle is thrilled!



Jamin has the job of assembling both our kites now that he's the MAN of house on our outings!


Releasing the Dragon

A classic landing!

Netflix Mix up

I suppose it was bound to happen. We opened the sleeve that said "Mulan 2 - Disney", inserted the disc, and up on the screen popped....the insect's version of China and Mulan. Somehow it seemed to have lost something - but then again we ARE studying insects this week. It was a bit disconcerting to see human characters (Mulan etc) with three sets of legs and antennai.

The children want to try again next week. We finished the evening up with an episode of Gilligans Island and Hogan's Heroes. . . always dependable.

Cooking up a STORM


Tomorrow is our quarterly "unity" service and potluck. This means that instead of 3 services we are having one big protestant service and we are all eating together afterwards. Each service has sign up sheets for different dishes. The service I attend, the Student/contemporary, was supposed to bring chips. I was excited to go to a potluck and take nothing but chips. Personal family joke from Hardin, MT. ANYWAY - the sign up sheets got mixed up and the "dessert" one was passed around our service. Debbie and I were the only ones to sign up. I noticed the mix up and left a note for the Parish coordinator to let us know if she wanted us to bring chips instead. She let us know that we were the only two brining desserts.

SO....Jamin and I played in the kitchen this a.m. We made Chocolate Ooey Goey cake, blondies, chocolate chip cookies and white/coconut/almond cookies. At least I know that Zander will have lots of dessert options. ::snort::

I took the plunge!!!!

I did it and nothing terrible happened. LOL Hopefully, the category links in the side bar will make it easier to navigate.

I'm still not happy with the archive...I'll have to see how some of you worked it and ask questions. LOL I didn't want list after list of titles...there were 181+ in October alone. BUT I'm not sure that drop down thing is "right" either....of course, with the categories someone can find what they want that way rather than scrolling through the archives.....I guess.

I couldn't get a few minor things to work the way I wanted but overall it was as easy as you all said it would be. {G}